Against my better judgement, we’re going to get a little “political” today. And I put political in the quotes there, because I don’t really feel like this is a political issue; I think it’s a moral issue. It may be a small part of that issue, it’s a part nonetheless. The NCAA has, since 2001, banned predetermined postseason events from taking place in South Carolina because of their insistence on flying the confederate flag on Statehouse grounds. They are now considering expanding that ban to all postseason football and baseball games, and I hope they do it.
I realize that’s not going to be popular with the “Heritage, Not Hate” crowd, but hey… you win some, you lose some, and I don’t mind losing that one. I don’t even know what the hell that means. If you have to come up with a slogan to attach to your flag that tries to convince people that it’s not a symbol of hate… then yeah, it’s probably best that you just leave your flag in the closet. Just put it down. It hurts people… that’s the beginning and the end of it. It hurts a large group of people, so put your flag down. That’s it.
This is not a free speech issue. I’m not suggesting that they pass a law that would make it illegal for anyone to own or celebrate a confederate flag; I just think the NCAA is making the right call here if they go through with this. It’s not about banning the flag, it’s about politely asking the government to stop endorsing a symbol that stands for racism and slavery, and then the NCAA making their own decisions about things if that government won’t comply. Good for them.
You can celebrate your heritage on your own time. If you want to put up a confederate flag on your front lawn, drink a mint julep, wear a bolo tie, lose a war, grow big puffy sideburns, order an Elvis figurine off of TV, and wash your pick-up truck after taking out an ad in the paper for indentured servants, then hey, have at it. I’d just rather it not be done on government property. Why would anyone need a confederate flag placed on Statehouse grounds to celebrate their heritage? A private listening to a Toby Keith CD should be plenty.
And just to be clear, I’m not saying that all people who fly confederate flags are necessarily bad people. I’m just saying that they’re all doing, knowingly or otherwise, a racist thing. Like it or not, that flag is permanently tied to racism and slavery. And I’m sure there are people out there who look at the flag and somehow, someway, feel some sense of honest pride, but that doesn’t erase the other meaning. Whatever idea that confederate-flag-waver has in his own head does not supercede the fact that it’s a symbol that’s hurtful to a lot of people. So just put it down. All I’m really asking is that you not be an inconsiderate asshole.
So, um… oh yeah, the NCAA. I urge them to go through with it. For all the college athletes in the country, it’s the right thing to do.
Mike Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 5:16 am
If someone can show me Confederate flags being flown at the campuses where the post-season events would be taking place, I could understand the NCAA not giving the events to the campuses. But taking away post-season events just because ONE flag is flown MILES away from campus is stupid and flies in the face of what the First Amendment is all about.
Now before people start calling me a racist redneck, here are some points of clarification:
1. Me: racist, no; redneck, sure (under Jeff Foxworthy’s definition “lack of sophistication”
2. I am an Oregonian with no ties to South Carolina or the rest of the South.
3. Because of 2., I don’t care what the South Carolina State Legislature does.
4. I think Confederate flags are stupid, but I respect your right to fly one as long as you respect my right to call you stupid for doing so.
5. I am a firm believer in free speech. The South Carolina State Legislature has the right to fly a Confederate flag (or not) anywhere they want to in South Carolina, the NAACP has the right to protest the flying of the Confederate flag, the NCAA has the right to ban post-season events in South Carolina, I have the right to disagree with the NCAA, MJD has the right to agree with the NCAA.
I hope I made everything clear.
KP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:55 am
So let me get this straight, if they were to pass this “ban”, schools like Clemson and South Carolina wouldn’t be allowed to host any kind of post season event?
And this is because the Statehouse (one stinking building) has a confederate flag out front?
Give me a break. I guarantee you most of the student athletes on all those teams in SC schools agree with you when it comes to that flag.
So you want them to be punished for something they have nothing to do with?
It’s not the NCAA place. Who the phuck do they think they are? They are responsible for college athletics not strongarming state governments into changing policy.
Let the people of SC get rid of the stupid flag on their own.
I don’t like how the city of San Francisco allowed Gay marriage, maybe the NFL can ban post season games at Monster park or whatever they call candlestick now.
lopey986 Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:58 am
Forget that it represents slavery and racism…it fuckin’ represents losing. This is not the message you want to send to kids gettin’ ready to play in a bowl game or other postseason game, “Hey, it’s okay if you lose around here, we’ll still fly your fuckin’ flag.”
MattP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:05 am
Ugh, I had a long response typed up, messed up the security code and it got deleted. Basically, it was saying that:
1. Unfortunately it isn’t a case of “Just take it down”. It took a good five to ten years and a compromise no one was happy with (the one that put the flag next to the Confederate soldier’s monument on the State House grounds) to just get it off the dome. I’d be happy if it was taken down, but we’ll have to wait for a bunch of long-time legislators to die or retire before it happens. Remember, tattooing was banned until this year, and the most outspoken opponent used the reasoning that it was an “abomination against God”, until he saw an illegal tattoo shop that DHEC shut down.
2. It’s unfair to athletes and fans of schools like Clemson, USC, SC State, Wofford, Furman, and local businesses. It is another case of the NCAA punishing athletes for things they cannot change.
MattP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:27 am
Oh, I should have also mentioned Winthrop, another SC school with recent post-season success.
This may also be an NCAA attempt to break Dave Odom’s hammerlock on the NIT, by getting rid of any home court advantage.
Unsilent Majority Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:53 am
Isaac: Exaudio, Comperio, Conloquor. That’s a Latin phrase that translates: To Listen, To Learn, To Speak. Those words are carved into the stone arches that form the entrance to the undergraduate library at Tennessee Western University. This afternoon, an extraordinary young man named Roland Shepard made what had to have been an excruciating decision. He said he wasn’t playing football under a Confederate flag. Six of his teammates then chose not to let Shepard stand alone. And I choose to join them at this moment. In the history of the South, there’s much to celebrate. And that flag is a desecration of all of it. It’s a banner of hatred and sepratism. It’s a banner of ignorance and violence and a war that pitted brother against brother, and to ask young black men and women, young Jewish men and women, Asians, Native Americans, to ask Americans to walk beneath its shadow is a humiliation of irreducible proportions. And we all know it. Tennessee Western has produced some outstanding alumni in the last hundred years. People of wisdom and vision. Strength and compassion. One of them is Luther Sachs. Luther Sachs owns Continental Corp, which owns the Continental Sports Channel, which you’re watching right now. Luther Sachs is a generous alumni contributor to Tennessee Western with a considerable influence over its Chancellor, Davis Blake, and its Board of Trustees. Luther, you’ve got a phone call to make. You’ve got to call Chancellow Blake and tell him to take down that flag or he can stop looking for your checks in the mail. You’ve got to put these young men back in a classroom, and I mean pronto. These boys are gonna make you proud one day, Luther. I challenge you to do the right thing. Not an unreasonable request to make of a man whose alma mater declares Exaudio, Comperio, Conloquor. To Listen, To Learn, To Speak. In the meantime, God go with you, Roland Shepard and you six Southern Gentlemen of Tennessee. God’s not done with any of you yet.
-Sports Night
Unsilent Majority Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:54 am
Shrooms or no, Aaron Sorkin is the best writer in television
The Bird Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:18 am
The NCAA should worry about, you know, college sports and leave South Carolina alone. This goes in the same category as the NCAA denying post season events to schools with “offensive” mascots. Worry about sports and leave the politics to the people and politicians in South Carolina, North Dakota or wherever. It only hurts the players and fans in South Carolina for something completely out of their control.
I am offended that Duke has de facto home court advantage during the first two (sometimes four) games of March Madness. Can we ban the state of North Carolina from hosting those rounds while we are at it?
rob Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:36 am
Nice post. I proudly admit to being on the fence. I refuse to blindly support the stubborn bureaucratic monolith which reaps billions of dollars annually by promoting the free labor of black athletes, or the stubborn bureaucratic monolith which appears to celebrate the billions of dollars of free labor forced from black slaves.
And really, the threat is kind of empty. Does SC play host to any postseason event that anyone on a national level cares about? Until this post I had forgotten that such a bad was still in effect. Are there similar bans in Alabama and Mississippi? At least SC actually changed its flag from Dixie.
http://www.netstate.com/state_flags.htm
Also, MattP - Notice the report says “predetermined postseason events.” Odom is safe to Threepeat in the NIT. But tragically the NCAA Division III Water Polo Championships are barred from the state. No coeds in bikinis for you!
Bouj Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Hey, if SC wants to ccelebrate sedition and treason, along with racism and slavery, by all means, keep flying the flag. But that doesn’t mean the NCAA has to have any events there. They are a private organization.
The NCAA can decide where they hold their events. If they don’t like that the state gov’t is giving de facto approval of what the Confederate flag really represents, then the NCAA doesn’t have to go there. No one is putting a gun to SC’s head over this.
LSU Prisoner Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 12:45 pm
I’m a college student that was displaced by Katrina, and I was obligated to spend a semester at LSU. Many LSU fans proudly carried purple and gold Confederate flags during tailgating and on gameday. Moreover, when a student protest was launched the university deemed that it was ok for fans to carry their flags and parade them on campus. The issue between the fans escalated and resulted in the vandalism of homes and cars, including a the house of an historically black fraternity. I’m now back at my regular university, but I heard from friends about a petition to adorn the newly renovated Tiger Stadium with the purple and gold Confederate flag. If a pre-eminent state university allows that kind of bullshit to go on then maybe they should have to answer to a governing body. If in Germany and other European nations FIFA has the power to fine and ban fans for raccial insensitivity towards players and other nations, then why not the NCAA?
MattP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Rob, I was responding to the possible expansion of the ban to all postseason football and baseball games. Some examples of postseason play that could be banned: both USC and Clemson have hosted college baseball games, Dave “NIT” Odom’s post season play.
Bouj, I understand that the NCAA is free to do as it likes regarding the scheduling of postseason tournaments. I am not sure what you mean by ‘changing the flag from Dixie’, as the current flag dates from just before the Civil War, and only differed from the previous flag by the addition of the palmetto tree.
Like I said before, the current location is a result of a compromise that brought the flag off the state house dome. Even if the flag were to come down from its current location next to a war memorial to confederate dead in the Civil War, there’s still a statue of Ben Tillman on the State House grounds. At what point may the NCAA end their boycott?
I don’t see how forcing schools who don’t endorse the flag’s use to play home games out of state makes a difference in all this.
MattP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Oh, just remembered another. Furman has hosted a bunch of I-AA football playoff games.
rob Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:54 pm
MattP - I admit up front I’m confused. The article to which mjd links states the NCAA has a continuing moratorium “on awarding predetermined postseason events to the state.” I would understand that to mean conference championships which are scheduled months in advance.
I follow the SoCon, so I’m well aware of Furman in the I-AA playoffs. Yet Furple having a I-AA playoff game at home is not a “predetermined” event in the sense that a league tournament is. That is why the Lamecocks can play home NIT games, but the Final Four will never come to town.
To further mud the waters, the SoCon recently held several league postseason events in SC, including (the link is really long, go to www.soconsports.com and click on championships):
Women’s Soccer, Men’s Soccer-Semi/Final, Indoor Track & Field, Men’s and Women’s basketball, Men’s and Women’s tennis, Men’s golf and baseball.
So I assume the SoCon forgot the NCAA moratorium, ignored it, or has long-standing contracts signed prior to 2001 it must honor.
Which leads me to my original point - this is an empty threat by the NCAA.
MattP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:04 pm
First sentence of the article: “The NCAA will consider expanding its ban of championship events in South Carolina, possibly disallowing baseball and football teams from hosting postseason games, because the Confederate flag is displayed on Statehouse grounds.”
Conference tournaments wouldn’t be included, only NCAA championships. It’s unclear from the article if sports other than baseball and football would be included in the proposed extension of the ban. I don’t take it as an empty threat, they already did take away all pre-scheduled championship events.
Zack Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:08 pm
I usually abhor the NCAA as an organization, but for once I think they are actually doing the right thing. The fact that South Carolina still has that damn flag above their capital is a blight upon this country. No matter how one tries to defend the Confederate flag, it is still a symbol of racism, and it should not be hanging outside a government building. Maybe the loss of potential revenues generated byt these sporting events will make South Carolina address the issue, but somehow I doubt that it will. At least it’s a step in the right direction.
Oh and Kp, you are an idiot. The Confederate flag is a completely different type of issue than allowing gay marriage. It’s not even close.
KP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Zach- what do you mean they’re not even close? They are both social issues which divide people.
It was a joke to point out how absurd the NCAA is on this you pickle sniffer.
Big Daddy Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 6:12 pm
How would people in this country feel if the legislators decided to fly the flags of Nazi Germany, Japan, Italy, Soviet Russia, or any other countries that “lost” a war to us? Or just decided to fly the flag of a country that is inferior to us - like France? Would that be OK? The south LOST the war - and will not rise again. Get over it.
Chris R Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Dumb question that isn’t particularly germane to the discussion:
How is it that most people who display the Confederate flag consider themselves more patriotic than others? I mean, they are displaying a symbol of secession from the Union and implicitly celebrating probably the *least* patriotic action in American history, right?
Oh, yeah. And also offensive in a racial context, as well.
So its horrific on many contexts.
KP Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Noone seems to be arguing in favor of the flag only that the NCAA shouldn’t be the organization to try and get rid of it yet you some of you boneheads keep rambling about how hideous the flag is and have nothing to contribute to the real debate.
Okay the flag is racist and rednecks suck and the south will never rise again but should the NCAA have a political agenda?
LSU Prisoner Says:
August 3rd, 2006 at 12:40 am
If other governing bodies in sport make statements against racism and racist displays (like FIFA) why not the NCAA?
Roger Says:
August 3rd, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Wow…some people may just need to take a step back from their pontification machine as I get preached to enough in church. I think the outrage is overblown and, similar to the Mascot issue, is part of the wussification of America.
I don’t really care about the Confederate Flag either way but…
1. Succession and the Confederate flag was about a lot more than slavery and those who don’t know that might want to read a book.
2. I am pretty sure many African Americans would feel that they suffered mightily under the Stars and Stripes. In additon, I wonder how Native Americans feel having to see the American Flag flying all the time? I imagine that is a pretty strong symbol of their suffering.
If the Federal Govt. wants to ban it due to its “Traitorous meaning”…good.
If the NCAA, a private organization (and quite Hypocritical at that) won’t play games there…good, that’s there right.
But let’s dismount our High Horse long enough to see our mount takes nasty dumps too.
And by the way…as an Irish American…when are going to hear the outrage about the little Drunk lookin’ angry Leprechan that symbolizes the Fightin’ Irish??? When? NEVER because WHO GIVES A SHIT!!! It’s a freakin’ mascot people!!! Get a fuckin’ Hobby!!
riggs Says:
August 4th, 2006 at 12:08 am
First of all, Roger, it’s spelled secession. Being a native Tennessean, I’ve known plenty of folks from the “heritage, not hate” crowd. They make a fair argument, but at the end of the day, the confederate flag has too many negative connotations. Don’t believe me? Look at what flag the Klan likes to wave around at their rallies. It’s one thing to be Southern. It’s another altogether to be racist. The Confederate flag has no place as an official symbol. I am also of Irish heritage, and to compare the Notre Dame mascot to the symbol of the Confederacy is not even close. A leprechaun with a bowler hat and clenched fists never represented people of one race literally owning people of another race. I never thought I’d say it, but the NCAA is right.
Dave's Football Blog Says:
August 4th, 2006 at 11:58 am
My old friend Lou has a fun take on the Confederate flag…
“I believe that the flying of the Confederate Flag is an ACT OF WAR against the United States. That flag is not a symbol of slavery as the NAACP suggests. It is an act of rebellion. It celebrates the belief system that caused the bloodiest war in our Nation’s history.
There are those who will argue that flying the Confederate Flag is protected under the first amendment of the US Constitution. I believe these people to be ignorant. In this era where free speech is being curtailed at every point and where the Supreme Court is our primary legislative body, I see no problem at all with restricting one more bit of alleged free speech. Besides, I believe this flying of an ENEMY flag an attempt by the state of South Carolina to incite TREASON against the United States of America.”
Dennis Says:
August 4th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
What if the Native American Indians Complained about the American flag flying ever where and said that they were offended by it because the way there people where killed and had there land stolen by the American people years ago. Would we take down the American flag I doubt it. The Confederate flag is no more racist than the American Flag.
the mighty mjd Says:
August 5th, 2006 at 1:32 am
I think Dennis has a pretty good point there.
JichaelDick Says:
August 5th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
As a student at the University of Mississippi, I have this gut feeling that the NCAA is fixing to lay the hammer down on us for the Confederate Flag thing (although our bureaucrats pretty much ended the confederate flags flying at football games by banning sticks from the stadium. I’m not kidding), and the “Rebels” nickname. Personally, I don’t think the NCAA should meddle in our business, because you end up hurting a lot of athletes, both black and white, who have nothing to do with the issue. However, and this is something that the “Heritage, not hate” crowd forgets…groups like the KKK have taken whatever positive connotation that flag ever had (if it had any), and destroyed it. That flag now no more represents heritage than Lee’s quill pen used to sign the terms of surrender at Appomattox.
One thing that is forgotten is that flag is merely the navy jack of the Confederacy. Those folks are using the wrong flag to begin with.
Sam Says:
August 5th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Roger, you say that “succession” was about a lot more than slavery? “Read a book”? This is for you:
Alexander Stephens, the eventual Vice President of the Confederacy, was responsible for going around to the state legislatures in other Southern States and encouraging them to join South Carolina in secession. In a speech to the Georgia state legislature, he said:
“Our new government’s foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery-subordination to the superior race-is his natural and normal condition.”
That’s it. That’s what the flag represents. Period.
Youu know why you’ve probably never heard of this quote? Because up until recently, the South Carolina and Georgia state archives willfully hid this speech and many others in order to propagate the myth that secession was “about a lot more than slavery,” as you put it.
We can debate whether the NCAA should get involved in this or not, but don’t re-write history to try and prove a point; there are enough revisionists out there now. So instead of reading a book, (since the ones you read are clearly mistaken) I suggest you come here to Milwaukee and visit the Black Holocaust Museum.
http://www.blackholocaustmuseum.org/
Zack Says:
August 6th, 2006 at 12:50 am
The NCAA definately has the right to take a stance on the issue because it is a private organization that retains the right to hold its members to levels of standards and morals.
KP I apologize for being an idiot and taking your comment at face value. I thought that you were stating that supporting gay rights and supporting slavery were on the same level. I apologize.
colintj Says:
August 6th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
the american flag is an evolving institution representative of not only the past of this country, but also the present and future ideals. it is all encompassing and serves to remind of so very much, both bad and good.
the confederate flag had it’s day. in that day, it stood for a confederacy decided that it was about separatism, slavery and general douchebaggery. there is no hope, no forward looking aspect, no worthwhile quality and not even a current, save in the minds of some idiotic rednecks.
there is a considerable difference between the two, even to native americans who might (rightly) feel aggrieved by the particulars of our national history which the flag certainly stands for because of the diverse role it plays as a symbol of this country. it has multiple meanings to individuals like myself, so to pigeonhole it as is so easy to do with the confederate flag would be a disservice to the whole which the stars and stripes stands for.
Mark Says:
August 7th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Although I am likely way too late to this discussion, just wanted to add my own input.
The entire nation has talked about this at one point or another. South Carolina has taken to looking like the whiny little kid saying, “But I don’t wanna!”
Is the inevitably tarnished image of the state worth it to keep a stupid little flag flying?
Roger Says:
August 14th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
PLEASE don’t make me go to Milwaukee! I don’t have to right?
Steve Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 11:54 am
Stephen’s speach is called the “Cornerstone Speech”. To say it has been hidden is plain stupid. Shall we quote some more people of that time? Say Lincoln? “I,as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.” and “Free them(slaves)and make them politically and socially our equals? My
own feelings will not admit of this. We cannot, then, make them equals”. Like the man said, read a book because you won’t find any Lincoln quotes at the black holocaust web site that express his
true feelings. Just more propaganda. Some here try to explain away the US (Old Glory) genocde of
Red people and 89 years of slavery by talking about evolving. Who’s to say the CSA would not have also evolved? And the NCAA and the BCA?(by
the way, how many Asians or Native Americans are in the Black Coaches Ass.? Oh, thats right, they aren’t allowed) After the flag is down, next will be the monuments, then all Confederate names etc.
Fuck the NCAA and the fuck the racist segregated
BCA!